Alamaze & Fall of Rome Forum
#300 - Experimental - Printable Version

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RE: #300 - Experimental - Ry Vor - 02-25-2015

The other side of the coin here is to reflect on how far we have come since the start of Game 300.

As an Experimental game, much of the effort was to show the game could run on this new platform (XML instead of Clipper), and demonstrate how quickly changes could be implemented, and to dress up turn results, use automated processing and several other advantages.   It has been a true success.

Uncle Mike put in the 1st Cycle kingdoms so we could see what they would look like and if we wanted to bring them back, what changes we would have to put in to make them 2nd Cycle compatible.  No changes were made specifically to those kingdoms in #300.  He also created a new kingdom quickly in the Druid, which has been a fun position.  The game was started with more than 15 kingdoms and handled that, had hidden cities, other changes.  Again a demonstration: not the baseline for future releases.

That said, if you ran a 1st Cycle kingdom, if you can strip out everything except the kingdom itself, ie, not about who attacked, the other players, how close kingdoms were, etc, just on the kingdom itself, and be very specific, that would be very helpful to the decision as to whether to bring these back as optional kingdoms.

So, if willing, it would be great if you guys would state here for the community what the advantages of the 1st Cycle kingdom you ran were, so not just "political", but maybe, "starting 14 influence, 2 princes, 1 duke, (etc), Tolerant in 4 regions, for military, 7 brigades with 1200 infantry, 500 cavalry, 300 archers, wizards were 3 P1's and 2 adepts, research 11k, special orders. etc.  Then what you would recommend for changes, and whether you think the kingdom should be brought back.  Just post on this thread.


RE: #300 - Experimental - DuPont - 02-25-2015

Okay, I'll have a go with the WE. Broken into sections:
Magic - the WE starts with only 3 adepts. At least one of these should be a power 1 at the start. The highest guaranteed level is 4 - I'd suggest that this should be 5. Magic research is fine at 9k and in fact, would be more appropriate at 9.5, 10 or even 10.5 considering it's clearly not any kind of magic kingdom.
Military. This is a huge problem. Something is way wrong with the troops - I was loosing ridiculous amounts of soldiers in my fights with the EL - I've never seen numbers like this. The starting number of brigades is quite all right and while the leaders are low (fair enough - the best probably went with the Paladins when they split, the traitors), this doesn't do any good if the troops themselves are so crappy. And at 3k food and 3k gold each, they are extremely expensive. This is the biggest problem with this kingdom.
Economic. The WE starts with 25k food and 30k gold. In it's original incarnation, WE started out owning Meridon, so this wasn't an issue. Combined with the high cost of the military, this is a real problem. More food and gold is needed for this position at the start.
Political. WE starts at 16.0 influence. While the WE should start with the highest influence on the board, this is just too high. I'd put it at 15.0 or 14.5. He's got a full court, but also 2 ambassadors and 2 envoys. Envoys are really almost a liability these days - since they double as 'court jester' and cost influence when they die (something that should be scrapped, IMHO - they are already targets for budding assassins and this just makes them more hunted). I would say keep the 2 ambassadors, but turn on of the envoys into a Gov. The WE should be the strongest political power on the board. Regional reactions are fairly good for the WE and I don't see the need to change them.
Agents. WE starts with 2, 1 and 1. That's pretty bad - I'd like to see the 2 become a 3, especially with no HPs in the early game. That gives them a chance to start 976ing on turn 2. The max training level; 12, is quite adequate.
Seapower. All good here. 3 in Mystery and 1 in Foreboding - level 12. No need for changes.
Other. Not sure how Natural Enemies will be handled going forward, but the WE and the WI should be natural enemies. The WE lead the grand alliance against the WI that nearly destroyed him before. It's a better fit for the narrative.
The WE should also get a couple of special things like all the other kingdoms. I've not put much thought into this, but here are a couple ideas.
1. If the WE is on the HC and there is a tie bid for an issue, the WE's issue should win because, hey, he's the WE! And carries 'great influence' still. Granted this won't come up very much, but it's something and it seems to fit the position.
2. WE emmies preforming 310 should get a good bonus. The common people will remember who saved Alamaze - it's sung about in every tavern. You'd think twice if a WE politician was telling you to hold the line.
3. WE politicians should get a bonus when trying to leave a city under siege and only a 35% of getting caught in a fall. There is always somebody who remembers the glory of the WE kingdom who will go the extra mile to help them get away.

Anyway, that's my thoughts so far.


RE: #300 - Experimental - Cipher - 02-25-2015

(02-25-2015, 09:52 AM)unclemike Wrote: The city's defense was 57,411 at the time of the attack.

Keep in mind that my wizards dispelled his magic then killed the warlord and general II. So that's a 37% drop in combat value before the battle even began. If you want a rough estimate, that would be:

   102,085 combat value x 0.63 = 64,314 vs my capital's 57,411

He attacked on TAC 3 so he basically impaled himself on my city's battlements.

Note: The above battle description ended rather abruptly and lacked the flavor text that describes the various "storm" waves of pc combat. I'll get to that later when I have the time.
1. Why do the Warlord, Marshal and General appear in the combat info if they were killed earler?
2. This math is not correct.  Assuming a 100,000 point group with W, M, G that loses the W and G:
    That's 50 points of leadership, but losing all leaders wouldn't make the group be worth 50k, it would be 66,666 (which x 1.5 = 100k)
    So, losing 37 points of leadership would leave the group in the low to mid 70k's


RE: #300 - Experimental - Jumpingfist - 02-25-2015

I figured it was a cut and paste to show what they started at. In the description only a marshal is leading the group. Math is math. 70k vs 57k capital is going to be bloody.


RE: #300 - Experimental - Beatific - 02-25-2015

(02-25-2015, 12:31 PM)Ry Vor Wrote: The other side of the coin here is to reflect on how far we have come since the start of Game 300.

As an Experimental game, much of the effort was to show the game could run on this new platform (XML instead of Clipper), and demonstrate how quickly changes could be implemented, and to dress up turn results, use automated processing and several other advantages.   It has been a true success.

Uncle Mike put in the 1st Cycle kingdoms so we could see what they would look like and if we wanted to bring them back, what changes we would have to put in to make them 2nd Cycle compatible.  No changes were made specifically to those kingdoms in #300.  He also created a new kingdom quickly in the Druid, which has been a fun position.  The game was started with more than 15 kingdoms and handled that, had hidden cities, other changes.  Again a demonstration: not the baseline for future releases.

That said, if you ran a 1st Cycle kingdom, if you can strip out everything except the kingdom itself, ie, not about who attacked, the other players, how close kingdoms were, etc, just on the kingdom itself, and be very specific, that would be very helpful to the decision as to whether to bring these back as optional kingdoms.

So, if willing, it would be great if you guys would state here for the community what the advantages of the 1st Cycle kingdom you ran were, so not just "political", but maybe, "starting 14 influence, 2 princes, 1 duke, (etc), Tolerant in 4 regions, for military, 7 brigades with 1200 infantry, 500 cavalry, 300 archers, wizards were 3 P1's and 2 adepts, research 11k, special orders. etc.  Then what you would recommend for changes, and whether you think the kingdom should be brought back.  Just post on this thread.

And a fantastic demo at that!  Well done Uncle Mike!  I  Heart the improvements you have contributed to this community!  The experimental kingdom stuff and new spells are gravy whether they work out or not.  A hearty thank you from this member!


RE: #300 - Experimental - Acererak - 03-06-2015

As DuPont called out- the losses I'm seeing in this game are just completely out of whack with anything I've seen in any other game. Here's the latest:

19K division, 160% morale. Marshal 2 and Power 4 wizard vs a village with 2,100 defense. So almost 10 X 1 odds.

Result: Nomad loses 2,300 troops (a full brigade).

Bizarre to say the least.


Assault by the 1st Nomad full division on the Sorcerer village of Frinlas, located in area
of Synisvania: In the first hour of morning Marshal XX commanded his 1st Nomad full
division to advance upon the village. As the most important group of their people, the
fighters are visibly bolstered by the presence of the first Nomad banner! As the attackers
advanced through the plains the first missiles sang out. The Nomad skilled archers
inflicted light damage to their opponents lines. The wall defenders skilled archers
inflicted little or no damage to their opponents lines. The Nomad wizard XX dismounted
past the defensive misslers on the battlefield. The Nomad Power-4 wizard XX cast a
series of minor assaults: some lighting, fire, and sonic blasts which disrupted the
opposing troops. The Nomad emphatic mages dealt out considerable damage to the wall
defenders. Within a few hours, the village defenses were obliterated and an unconditional
surrender was offered. The Nomad banner now waves nobly in Frinlas! Nomad casualties were
put at 2,300 troops. Nomad leader Captain Nexus was slain in battle. All the Nomad wizards
survived the fray. The indisputable nature of the Nomad force's victory has greatly
increased morale.


On turn 23 I engaged in a group battle with the Sorceror where I should have clearly been wiped out but was not.

The battle system appears to need a lot of work. Not criticism it just is what it is.


RE: #300 - Experimental - Acererak - 03-06-2015

To follow on. I would uneqivocally and without reservation say that the Nomad should NOT be in any further games. I have been trying all game to figure out the single advantage that this kingdom has. I have found zero.

Political: 14 influence start, good RR, but you start with a Prince and a Count and a Governor and Two Ambassadors. Not very good at all. No Duke or Baron.
Military: Decent level of starting brigades but besides moving at a rate of 4 in desert and plains you have no advantage I can tell. The secret defensive score must be the absolute lowest possible because I don't think I've ever fought a battle against a pop center and lost less than a full brigade. Even at 10 -1 odds. No evasion or significant bonus even in the desert. 10% bonus. Pretty worthless. No recruiting rules that help.
Magic: Horrible. Power 4 cap, 9k research. No Sleep or Ward until P3. The only thing I found that was good was strengthen walls at power 2.
Agents: Good potential at level 12. This is nothing exceptional as more than half the kingdoms get the same or higher.
Starting Position: Started with the RD home based next to me and Giant and UN in the region so you can figure that out for yourself.
Special rules: Zero, zip, nada.

Put this kingdom out to pasture. There is not one advantage I can find and I've been playing them for 24 turns. :-)


RE: #300 - Experimental - DuPont - 03-06-2015

Well, the question is, though, what would you suggest to balance the kingdom and make it useful? A couple more emmies, perhaps, work on the army and a special rule or two? I think the Nomad should be invisible in the desert automatically, for example. Or perhaps a special spell that can be cast at power 1 to accomplish that. I would also put their desert movement at 3.3 - they have fast horses, for sure they can do as well as those lumbering giants!


RE: #300 - Experimental - Acererak - 03-06-2015

Good points Victor. I would think certainly they should have mastery in the desert, as well as evasion. A couple of more emissaries. Making them very interesting would be to take something from the Bedouin and allowing them to move villages. Perhaps you can move 1 village per turn in the desert, and 2 if you control the Sands? Also, some kind of recruiting advantage or 565 in addition to the 3.3 desert movement.


RE: #300 - Experimental - DuPont - 03-06-2015

Oooh, a wandering capital! That could make the NO really interesting to play!